Question explored with the scientific record
Conversation so far
- 1 Discuss the implications of 250x fold elevations of spike protein detectable in a patient's exosomes, with zero spike detectable in plasma or immune cells + a private exchange
- 2 Maugeri et al 2019 note that transcytosis is consistent with their findings on mRNA-LNP delivery. Is this transfection, rather than transcytosis? + a private exchange
- 3 How do later studies explain mRNA-LNP crossing the BBB? + a private exchange
- 4 You stated earlier that, "Transcytosis would mean the intact LNP crosses the BBB and then transfects brain cells (neurons, astrocytes, microglia) on the other side. Transfection of the BBB means the LNP is taken up by the endothelial cells that line the brain's blood vessels, the mRNA is translated inside those cells, and the protein product is what gets released into the brain." Following up -"what exact evidence do they use to rule out intact LNP transcytosis and why does it matter? + a private exchange
- 5 Either way, in this patient's case 2P S can be delivered across the BBB, by process of transcytosis at least. Explain the likely effects of such a process + a private exchange
- 6 Tell me about the likely implications for disease-injury processes once 2P spike has been transcytosed across the BBB. + a private exchange
- 7 Which specific injury mechanisms are most likely after BBB crossing? + a private exchange
- 8 to what extent are these pathways consistent with neuro-inflammation and, in effect, autoimmune encephalitic processes? + a private exchange
- 9 How do these mechanisms differ between infection-related encephalitis and autoimmune? + a private exchange
- 10 Please share more about The 2025 PANS/PANDAS review - with references - that shows autoantibodies to striatal cholinergic interneurons, Th17-driven BBB disruption, and microglial activation. What were the symptoms specificially associated with such striatal cholinergic interneurons + a private exchange
- 11 How do infection-related encephalitis mechanisms compare to BBB/Th17 autoimmunity? + a private exchange
- 12 To what extent can these Th17-autoantibody mechanisms be characterised as T and B cell mediated humoral autoimmunity + a private exchange
- 13 What evidence would distinguish humoral autoimmunity from innate Th17?
Answered on this page ↓
What evidence would distinguish humoral autoimmunity from innate Th17?
The short version: you need to look for autoantibodies in the serum and for IL-17 in the tissue, not the other way around.
The evidence that separates humoral autoimmunity from innate Th17-driven inflammation is straightforward in principle but often muddy in practice. Humoral autoimmunity leaves a signature in the blood: autoantibodies against specific self-antigens. The evidence records show this clearly for type 1 diabetes, where GAD65 autoantibodies appear in 70-80% of newly diagnosed patients and 80-90% of prediabetic individuals [2]. In Guillain-Barré syndrome, anti-ganglioside antibodies (GM1, GD1a) are the hallmark [9]. In the K/BxN mouse arthritis model, autoantibodies against glucose-6-phosphate isomerase drive the disease, and treatments that suppress germinal center B cells reduce those autoantibodies and prevent arthritis [8].
Innate Th17-driven inflammation, by contrast, does not require autoantibodies. It is driven by IL-17 produced by Th17 cells, γδ T cells, or innate lymphoid cells. The evidence records show IL-17 acting directly on tissue cells: in the temporomandibular joint, IL-17A upregulates chemokines like CXCL1 (49-fold), CXCL8 (24-fold), and CCL20 (15-fold) in synovial fibroblasts [17]. In a mouse model of periapical infection, P. gingivalis LPS drives IL-17-dependent local inflammation and systemic glucose intolerance, and IL-17 knockout mice are protected [13]. In spondyloarthritis models, IL-23 overexpression drives arthritis through IL-17-producing cells that are CD4-CD8-RORγt+, not through B cells or antibodies [14].
The key distinguishing evidence is what you measure and where. For humoral autoimmunity, you measure serum autoantibodies against known self-antigens. For Th17-driven inflammation, you measure IL-17 in the tissue or the responding cells, not in the serum. The evidence records do not contain a single study that directly compares these two pathways in the same cohort with the same antigen. That gap matters. When spike protein is elevated in exosomes but absent in plasma and immune cells, the question becomes whether the exosomes are carrying a self-antigen that triggers autoantibody production (humoral) or whether they are delivering a signal that activates IL-17-producing cells directly (innate Th17). The evidence records show that exosomes can carry both self-antigens [20] and viral antigens [22], so the cargo alone does not settle it.
My call: the evidence supports measuring serum autoantibodies against the spike protein or cross-reactive self-antigens to confirm humoral autoimmunity, and measuring IL-17 in tissue or exosome-stimulated cell cultures to confirm Th17-driven inflammation. Confidence: moderate, because no study in this retrieval directly tests both pathways in the same system with the same exosomal cargo.
Sources used 8
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Cellular and Humoral Autoimmunity in Insulin-Dependent Diabetes Mellitus
A comprehensive review of cellular and humoral autoimmune responses to islet cell antigens in insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus (type 1 diabetes), detailing T-cell epitopes, autoantibody markers (GAD65, IA-2/ICA512, ICA, IAA), their predictive value, and the experimental model…
DOI: 10.1055/s-0029-1211401 -
Artesunate Abolishes Germinal Center B Cells and Inhibits Autoimmune Arthritis
The study demonstrates that artesunate, an artemisinin analogue, prevents and treats antibody-mediated autoimmune arthritis in a mouse model by selectively inhibiting germinal center B cell proliferation and autoantibody production, with minimal impact on T follicular helper cel…
DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0104762 -
Autoimmunity and cytokines in Guillain-Barré syndrome revisited: review of pathomechanisms with an eye on therapeutic options
This is a comprehensive review of Guillain-Barré syndrome (GBS) pathomechanisms, highlighting how infections (notably Campylobacter jejuni) trigger autoimmunity via molecular mimicry, the roles of Th1/Th17/Treg responses and innate immunity (TLRs/NODs), animal models like experi…
DOI: 10.1684/ecn.2019.0424 -
Porphyromonas gingivalis-induced glucose intolerance during periapical lesions requires its LPS throught a Th17 immune response
The study demonstrates that Porphyromonas gingivalis and its LPS promote IL-17–driven local periapical inflammation and systemic glucose intolerance in a high-fat-diet mouse model, with IL-17 deficiency or LPS impairment mitigating pathology, while human data associate Pg presen…
DOI: 10.1038/s41368-025-00403-6 -
What can Animal Models tell us About T Cells in Spondyloarthritis Pathogenesis?
This review surveys how animal models of spondyloarthritis reveal noncanonical T cell roles—beyond CD8 MHC I–driven responses—and how insights from HLA-B27–transgenic rats, SKG mice, and cytokine/innate-cell models illuminate pathogenic mechanisms and therapeutic strategies, whi…
DOI: 10.1007/s11926-025-01203-x -
Gene Expression Profiling of IL‐17A‐Treated Synovial Fibroblasts from the Human Temporomandibular Joint
The study investigates how IL-17A alters gene expression in human temporomandibular joint (TMJ) synovial fibroblasts, revealing IL-6 and chemokine upregulation via NF-κB and PI3K/Akt signaling, suggesting IL-17A contributes to inflammatory progression in temporomandibular disord…
DOI: 10.1155/2015/436067 -
Human thymic epithelial primary cells produce exosomes carrying tissue‐restricted antigens
The study demonstrates that cultured human thymic epithelial cells (TECs) release exosomes carrying tissue-restricted antigens and autoantigens, supporting a model in which TEC-derived exosomes could disseminate self-antigens within the thymus to influence thymocyte selection an…
DOI: 10.1038/icb.2015.33 -
Viral antigens detectable in CSF exosomes from patients with retrovirus associated neurologic disease: functional role of exosomes
The study shows that HTLV-1 Tax protein is packaged into exosomes from HAM/TSP patient cells and is detectable in exosomes from virus-free CSF, and these Tax-containing exosomes can sensitize HTLV-1–specific CTLs, suggesting a potential biomarker and a mechanistic role in HAM/TS…
DOI: 10.1186/s40169-018-0204-7